Month: August 2018

This is the third and final post on prophets and whether the Lord would call someone not part of the LDS hierarchy like Denver Snuffer to speak on His behalf.  (Dr. Nibble and Elder Johnson are not real people, but they represent real opposing ideas)

Mod: I think that leads us finally to talk about Denver Snuffer, and other prophets that the Lord might call that are not part of the established church hierarchy.  Is his message valid? Should we pay attention?

Nibble: If I may, there is a story told by Josephus in Wars of the Jews of a man named Jesus, son of Ananus, who appeared in Jerusalem four years before the war with the Romans which resulted in Jerusalem’s destruction. He appears suddenly in the market place, and actually climbs on to the walls of the city (shades of Samuel the Lamanite?) and declares these words: “A voice from the east, a voice from the west, a voice from the four winds, a voice against Jerusalem and the holy house, a voice against bridegrooms and the brides, and a voice against this whole people.” He repeated this everyday for seven years. He was like a wild man in their midst. He died by a Roman arrow on the wall of the city in the last year of the siege.

I tell that story because it is an example that you have probably not heard of, that the Lord always sends multiple messengers to warn and cajole people into repenting before destruction overtakes a people.  And they are never part of the establishment, for a reason.  We live in a time of great peril, a time that immediately precedes what the Lord says will be terrible.  Even the elect will be deceived.  There will be multiple prophets, many and from various backgrounds and customs. And there will be false prophets- who, according to Isaiah, Ezekiel, Alma and Jacob usually tell the public that all is well.  Are there any prophets recently that have told that all is well?

D&C 46:15-16 talks about the differences of administration and diversities of operations in the way the Holy Spirit is manifested.  The Lord does not communicate exclusively to His people through one voice.  The need for more than one prophet to prophesy also answers to the law of witnesses. And I have to say, the witnesses called by the Lord will always be rejected by established churches because they are not telling a message the leadership agrees with, and the prophet was not sanctioned by them and thereby  are unable to control the message.  When a messenger, a prophet, becomes popular, that is a warning sign.  So a true prophet’s message will never be popular, and will be accepted by very few.

Maybe you don’t think Denver Snuffer is a prophet sent by God, but, based on the way the Lord has always done things, there will always be someone like Denver who will come.  Those prophets will not be favored by church authorities. The idea of a Denver Snuffer is worth investigating.

Mod: It sounds like you are saying that the idea of having only one prophet, who is part of established religion, is not the normal, but actually the exception?

Nibble: I actually can’t think of another time when those conditions existed except when a church was under a Pope, or a very strong controlling central authority.  Even Joseph Smith tried to introduce the idea that the Lord wanted to create a society of priests; prophets able to know Christ and have revelations without having to go to him.  The same with Moses, but the people would have none of it in both generations.

Mod: Elder Johnson, how would you respond to that?

Johnson: I just want to say that you have heard a very convincing argument that the Lord doesn’t work through the channels that he specifically set up through Joseph Smith by revelation. The keys that were given to Joseph to administer the Kingdom of God on earth in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Saints have been preserved and handed down through men that have been prepared to serve as the Lord’s prophets.  It is the Lord’s method by which you can be assured of salvation. He wants you to look to the prophet that he has anointed to lead his church.  Denver Snuffer, and any other man or woman who pretends to speak for the Lord, will, in the end, be revealed to be false.  We have so many false prophets come and go, and they all have proven to be wolves in sheep’s clothing. By always looking to the presidency you can be assured that you will always be able to know what the Lord’s desire is for you. The Lord’s prophet will never lead you astray

Nibble: I think it is important to define the term “prophet”. Joseph Smith said that a prophet is a prophet when he acts like one, i.e., receives revelation from God.  D&C 107:91-92 says, “And again, the duty of the President of the office of the High Priesthood is to preside over the whole church, and to be like unto Moses- Behold, here is wisdom; yea to be a seer, a revelator, a translator, and a prophet.”  When was the last time you heard a prophecy by the president of the church, or when did he last translate or reveal sacred writings? You never have in your lifetime. Here is a statement by Joseph F. Smith, when he was president of the church, that summarizes the current state of leadership in the LDS Church. “I have never pretended, nor do I profess to have received revelations.  I never said I had a revelation except so far as God has shown to me that so called Mormonism is God’s divine truth; that is all.” (Reed Smoot Hearings, 1904).

Johnson: We have the revelation on lifting the priesthood ban in 1978 by Spencer W. Kimball.

Nibble: The truth behind that revelation is that President Kimball did not receive a revelation.  After attempting to get a revelation from God over several years trying, he resorted to asking God to speak to him if that was not His will.

Johnson: I think that qualifies as revelation.  The Lord works by influencing the actions and thoughts of His prophets.

Nibble: That is true, but a prophet should be a little more certain in his communication with God.  Now contrast the experience of the members of the LDS church over the years since Joseph F. Smith with prophecy, and look at the claims that Denver Snuffer has made.  He is saying that he has talked to the Lord. Met him face to face and been given instruction.  He has claimed to have been taught directly by heaven.

Johnson: As have many false prophets.

Nibble: But have you tested his words? Have you gone to the Lord and asked Him if he is a true prophet?

Johnson: I don’t have to.  I know he is a false prophet.  I have not read any of his books or blog posts. The Lord does not operate outside the church authorities that sit in Joseph Smith’s seat. That is the only test that matters.

Nibble: Well, all I can say to that is that the scriptures speak otherwise.  And a truly correct test would be to ask the Lord directly. Elder Johnson, I would like to refer you to John 7:17.

Mod: We have come to the end of our time together.  It has been a wonderful discussion. I would like to give each of you the opportunity to say a last few words.

Johnson: I would like to conclude my remarks by  bearing you my solemn testimony that the Lord directs his church through his prophet, the president of the church. Joseph Smith established the Lord’s church which will not be removed or supplanted until the Lord comes in glory before the Millennium. The government of the kingdom of God that Joseph set up before he was martyred was set up to ensure a continuity of receiving the Lord’s revealed word through the presidency of the church. I cannot stress enough that anyone outside of that established protocol who says that he has the words of Christ, is a false prophet.  And you follow him at your peril. Stay with the church, the authorities have the words of life.

Nibble:   I would like to conclude by offering this bit of advice: “prove all things”. If there is anything of good report seek after it to know if it is true.  The Lord’s pattern in scripture allows His word to be revealed through men and women who probably are not associated or called through existing church hierarchies, especially in times where the Lord is about to pour out judgement upon those people. Yes, there will be false prophets, and yes,  it requires the individual to inquire of the Lord directly to ascertain the truth of their message. The doctrine of infallibility of the president of the church is not scriptural.  He can and will lead you astray.  It has been a requirement of every generation to try the prophets and to determine truth by the Holy Spirit and not trust solely in the arm of flesh. Denver Snuffer fits the profile and role of every true prophet the Lord has sent to warn people in every age.  His role is to warn and advise, but not to rule and coerce people to believe.  If you reject his message out of hand without even a cursory read of his message, then you are not following the Lord’s admonition through Paul to ”prove all things”.

Mod: Thank you Elder Johnson and Dr. Nibble for this engaging discussion.

An interesting discussion, don’t you think? So much confusion and chaos about what to believe and who to believe. Both experts had some good points, but my sympathies lay with Dr. Nibble.  The stance of the LDS church is really untenable when compared with the scriptures and the writings of Joseph Smith.  There has not been a single revelation that stands the test of time from LDS church authorities since Joseph Smith. In stark contrast, you have Denver Snuffer who has made some extraordinary claims.  Claims that are unique, even if you consider all the claims from false prophets in modern times. They are extraordinary enough that they bear looking into.

This transcript is Part 2 of a virtual discussion between two eminent scholars: author and professor of history, Dr. Harold Nibble and LDS Historian, Elder Martin K. Johnson. They discuss the precedence of the Lord calling a prophet outside of an established priesthood hierarchy to warn and instruct the people of the LDS church. (Dr. Nibble and Elder Johnson are not real people. They represent two somewhat real opposing points of view)

Mod: What do the scriptures tell us about the Lord calling men to be prophets who are not part of the established “church”?  Or for that matter, do we have examples of times when the Lord called more than one prophet to warn and teach a people at the same time?  Has the Lord made allowances in the past for the calling of multiple prophets to minister to a nation or group of people?

Johnson: I think it is important to point out that the current dispensation, of which Joseph Smith is the founder, has some unique things going for it. There are conditions, qualities, practices, and ordinances that didn’t exist in previous dispensations.  For example, The Old Testament was written under the old Mosaic covenant, which is no longer applicable.  Most of the practices, traditions, requirements of that era are no longer to be observed, or even desired in this last dispensation.  So for us to say there is a precedent in scriptures we also need to acknowledge that we are dealing with new bottles. Things are done differently.  Can the Lord call men to be prophets who are not called and set apart through an established priesthood, through men he has appointed and anointed to administer these things in His name? He certainly has the ability, but He will not act outside what He has established as the method and procedure for such things.  I think it is a moot point to discuss what was done before, and to point at it and say, “See, this is how the Lord has always done it.” D&C 121:26-

Nibble: Not sure how to respond to that other then to say that I suppose it is human nature to assume that one is different from everybody else and therefore “special”.  I don’t know of a single scripture or statement by Joseph Smith that indicates the modern dispensation operates under different rules-other than in some outward ordinances. Joseph constantly taught that all the ordinances and knowledge were known and practiced in previous dispensations. This dispensation is not much different, only in operational principles does it look different.  Several verses come to mind. Primarily there is Moses 5:57-59, which states in verse 59, “And thus all things were confirmed unto Adam, by an holy ordinance, and Gospel preached, and a decree sent forth, that it should be in the world, until the end thereof; and thus it was. Amen”.

Johnson: Nevertheless, D&C 121:26-33 teaches that God meant for this last dispensation to be “special” as you use the term.  It is the dispensation where all things from all dispensations are brought together with new light that will be unique for the last dispensation.  Verse 26 and 27 especially point this out, “God shall give unto you knowledge by his Holy Spirit, yea, by the unspeakable gift of the Holy Ghost, that has not been revealed since the world was until now; Which our forefathers have awaited with anxious expectation to be revealed in the last times, which their minds were pointed to by the angels, as held in reserve for the fulness of their glory.”  This last dispensation is different.

Nibble: That is a wonderful revelation, but, I think, again, you have to look at the context of those verses in the revelation.  You really can’t look at a few verses in isolation without looking at the context.  If you read further into the section you will see that the Lord is talking directly to Joseph Smith and his experiences.  Not only that, but the Lord is referring to a future time.  Verse 28 specifically says, ”A time to come in which nothing shall be withheld.” I think we could discuss this point all day and not be able to establish, one way or another, if the current LDS church holds the only authority to revelation from the Lord.  I would really like to talk about how the Lord, who operates consistently from one generation to another, has always used multiple prophets to get the word out, and not necessarily prophets that are part of the established church.  In fact, it is usually unaffiliated prophets to the existing church.  I think we should consider 1 Nephi 10:19, first.

Mod: I have that right here, “For he that diligently seeketh shall find; and the mysteries of God shall be unfolded unto them by the power of the Holy Ghost, as well in these times as in times of old, and as well in times of old as in times to come; wherefore, the course of the Lord is one eternal round.”  So, Dr. Nibble, you are pointing out by this scripture that the Lord operates the same in every dispensation?

Nibble: Right, “the course of the Lord is one eternal round.”  Sure, the mechanism or organization through which His word is disseminated is a little different; In one dispensation He operates through Patriarchs, in another, judges.  In others it will be apostles, kings, high priests.  But in every case, every single dispensation,  the Lord has called other prophets, outside of the organized and established “church” to deliver messages to His people.  Usually to steer the people back on course, where the established church or religion has started to diverge from the path.

Mod: Give us an example of that taking place, say, during the time of the patriarchs, Abraham or Jacob. It is pretty obvious there were multiple prophets during the time of the Judges and Kings of Israel and Judah, and throughout the Book of Mormon.

Nibble: Sure.  Abraham was the founder of the dispensation.  He was the only one in the entire world willing to obey God.  Or so we are led to believe.  Remember the three messengers sent to Abraham on the way to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah?  The Lord sent those holy men to Abraham.  Turns out he wasn’t the only one who received revelation at that time.  Who was the messenger, or angel that wrestled with Jacob? Hugh Nibley wrote extensively about a couple of prophets mentioned in the Book of Mormon, Zenos and Zenoch, who he demonstrated  prophesied during a period that overlapped with Moses or shortly after.  I find it interesting that the Nephites try to ignore Samuel. Christ had to command the Nephites to include his prophecies in their records.  Were they reticent to include him in their records because he was not part of their church organization?

Johnson: It can be shown that in all of those cases, except perhaps the three messengers Abraham encountered, the existing church organization was in apostacy.

Nibble: Yes.

Johnson: But the present church is not in apostacy. In fact the scriptures indicate that the last dispensation will bring everything together and present this last great work of sealing everything together when the Lord comes.

Nibble: Hmm, well, we could debate that view at another time perhaps. But I can say this, having multiple witnesses of God’s involvement in the affairs of men seems to be the normal state. Having a single monolithic figure head as the sole spokesman for God occurs usually when society or the Lord’s church is in a state of apostacy.  The only exception is perhaps the during founding of a new dispensation, which, by the way, is always founded by a prophet who is not part of the leadership of established religions of the time in every case.

Johnson: In every dispensation but the current one. We have many assurances from the Lord that the last dispensation will never apostatize.  In a letter that Joseph Smith wrote to the saints in Nauvoo in 1842, which later became included in the Doctrine and Covenants as section 128, he speaks a lot about the final dispensation when all things are brought together; all knowledge, all ordinances, the sealing of all families together. He describes the dispensation of the fulness of times when all things will be restored. In verse 19 Joseph declares, “Now, what do we hear in the gospel which we have received? A voice of gladness! A voice of mercy from heaven; and a voice of truth out of the earth;…”  This is the dispensation that all true prophets have looked to for the recovery of all things pertaining to the establishment of the Lord’s gospel on the earth.  Never to be removed until Christ comes.

Nibble: And yet Isaiah, Nephi, Mormon, even Christ Himself at Bountiful speaks about the apostacy of the Gentile church before the second coming (Isaiah 28; 2; Nephi 27:1-2; 28; 3 Nephi 21; Mormon 8) .  There is no other way to read those prophecies than to understand that all generations, all churches, all societies, no matter how well founded, how well led, are in danger of falling away and rejecting truth.  That is a warning that even Joseph Smith uttered on numerous occasions.  There is no guarantee, there is no “safe” zone from being led away from the straight and narrow path. At least not until you are told by the Savior Himself that you are redeemed, and even then there are perils. Each person is responsible for their own souls, and cannot look to any authority to “save” them.

Mod: I think that leads us finally to talk about Denver Snuffer, and other prophets that the Lord might call that are not part of the established church hierarchy.  Is his message valid? Should we pay attention?

This post is longer than I thought.  I am going to have to break it up and add a third and final blog post.  I will release both part 2 and 3 the same day.