This transcript is Part 2 of a virtual discussion between two eminent scholars: author and professor of history, Dr. Harold Nibble and LDS Historian, Elder Martin K. Johnson. They discuss the precedence of the Lord calling a prophet outside of an established priesthood hierarchy to warn and instruct the people of the LDS church. (Dr. Nibble and Elder Johnson are not real people. They represent two somewhat real opposing points of view)
Mod: What do the scriptures tell us about the Lord calling men to be prophets who are not part of the established “church”? Or for that matter, do we have examples of times when the Lord called more than one prophet to warn and teach a people at the same time? Has the Lord made allowances in the past for the calling of multiple prophets to minister to a nation or group of people?
Johnson: I think it is important to point out that the current dispensation, of which Joseph Smith is the founder, has some unique things going for it. There are conditions, qualities, practices, and ordinances that didn’t exist in previous dispensations. For example, The Old Testament was written under the old Mosaic covenant, which is no longer applicable. Most of the practices, traditions, requirements of that era are no longer to be observed, or even desired in this last dispensation. So for us to say there is a precedent in scriptures we also need to acknowledge that we are dealing with new bottles. Things are done differently. Can the Lord call men to be prophets who are not called and set apart through an established priesthood, through men he has appointed and anointed to administer these things in His name? He certainly has the ability, but He will not act outside what He has established as the method and procedure for such things. I think it is a moot point to discuss what was done before, and to point at it and say, “See, this is how the Lord has always done it.” D&C 121:26-
Nibble: Not sure how to respond to that other then to say that I suppose it is human nature to assume that one is different from everybody else and therefore “special”. I don’t know of a single scripture or statement by Joseph Smith that indicates the modern dispensation operates under different rules-other than in some outward ordinances. Joseph constantly taught that all the ordinances and knowledge were known and practiced in previous dispensations. This dispensation is not much different, only in operational principles does it look different. Several verses come to mind. Primarily there is Moses 5:57-59, which states in verse 59, “And thus all things were confirmed unto Adam, by an holy ordinance, and Gospel preached, and a decree sent forth, that it should be in the world, until the end thereof; and thus it was. Amen”.
Johnson: Nevertheless, D&C 121:26-33 teaches that God meant for this last dispensation to be “special” as you use the term. It is the dispensation where all things from all dispensations are brought together with new light that will be unique for the last dispensation. Verse 26 and 27 especially point this out, “God shall give unto you knowledge by his Holy Spirit, yea, by the unspeakable gift of the Holy Ghost, that has not been revealed since the world was until now; Which our forefathers have awaited with anxious expectation to be revealed in the last times, which their minds were pointed to by the angels, as held in reserve for the fulness of their glory.” This last dispensation is different.
Nibble: That is a wonderful revelation, but, I think, again, you have to look at the context of those verses in the revelation. You really can’t look at a few verses in isolation without looking at the context. If you read further into the section you will see that the Lord is talking directly to Joseph Smith and his experiences. Not only that, but the Lord is referring to a future time. Verse 28 specifically says, ”A time to come in which nothing shall be withheld.” I think we could discuss this point all day and not be able to establish, one way or another, if the current LDS church holds the only authority to revelation from the Lord. I would really like to talk about how the Lord, who operates consistently from one generation to another, has always used multiple prophets to get the word out, and not necessarily prophets that are part of the established church. In fact, it is usually unaffiliated prophets to the existing church. I think we should consider 1 Nephi 10:19, first.
Mod: I have that right here, “For he that diligently seeketh shall find; and the mysteries of God shall be unfolded unto them by the power of the Holy Ghost, as well in these times as in times of old, and as well in times of old as in times to come; wherefore, the course of the Lord is one eternal round.” So, Dr. Nibble, you are pointing out by this scripture that the Lord operates the same in every dispensation?
Nibble: Right, “the course of the Lord is one eternal round.” Sure, the mechanism or organization through which His word is disseminated is a little different; In one dispensation He operates through Patriarchs, in another, judges. In others it will be apostles, kings, high priests. But in every case, every single dispensation, the Lord has called other prophets, outside of the organized and established “church” to deliver messages to His people. Usually to steer the people back on course, where the established church or religion has started to diverge from the path.
Mod: Give us an example of that taking place, say, during the time of the patriarchs, Abraham or Jacob. It is pretty obvious there were multiple prophets during the time of the Judges and Kings of Israel and Judah, and throughout the Book of Mormon.
Nibble: Sure. Abraham was the founder of the dispensation. He was the only one in the entire world willing to obey God. Or so we are led to believe. Remember the three messengers sent to Abraham on the way to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah? The Lord sent those holy men to Abraham. Turns out he wasn’t the only one who received revelation at that time. Who was the messenger, or angel that wrestled with Jacob? Hugh Nibley wrote extensively about a couple of prophets mentioned in the Book of Mormon, Zenos and Zenoch, who he demonstrated prophesied during a period that overlapped with Moses or shortly after. I find it interesting that the Nephites try to ignore Samuel. Christ had to command the Nephites to include his prophecies in their records. Were they reticent to include him in their records because he was not part of their church organization?
Johnson: It can be shown that in all of those cases, except perhaps the three messengers Abraham encountered, the existing church organization was in apostacy.
Nibble: Yes.
Johnson: But the present church is not in apostacy. In fact the scriptures indicate that the last dispensation will bring everything together and present this last great work of sealing everything together when the Lord comes.
Nibble: Hmm, well, we could debate that view at another time perhaps. But I can say this, having multiple witnesses of God’s involvement in the affairs of men seems to be the normal state. Having a single monolithic figure head as the sole spokesman for God occurs usually when society or the Lord’s church is in a state of apostacy. The only exception is perhaps the during founding of a new dispensation, which, by the way, is always founded by a prophet who is not part of the leadership of established religions of the time in every case.
Johnson: In every dispensation but the current one. We have many assurances from the Lord that the last dispensation will never apostatize. In a letter that Joseph Smith wrote to the saints in Nauvoo in 1842, which later became included in the Doctrine and Covenants as section 128, he speaks a lot about the final dispensation when all things are brought together; all knowledge, all ordinances, the sealing of all families together. He describes the dispensation of the fulness of times when all things will be restored. In verse 19 Joseph declares, “Now, what do we hear in the gospel which we have received? A voice of gladness! A voice of mercy from heaven; and a voice of truth out of the earth;…” This is the dispensation that all true prophets have looked to for the recovery of all things pertaining to the establishment of the Lord’s gospel on the earth. Never to be removed until Christ comes.
Nibble: And yet Isaiah, Nephi, Mormon, even Christ Himself at Bountiful speaks about the apostacy of the Gentile church before the second coming (Isaiah 28; 2; Nephi 27:1-2; 28; 3 Nephi 21; Mormon 8) . There is no other way to read those prophecies than to understand that all generations, all churches, all societies, no matter how well founded, how well led, are in danger of falling away and rejecting truth. That is a warning that even Joseph Smith uttered on numerous occasions. There is no guarantee, there is no “safe” zone from being led away from the straight and narrow path. At least not until you are told by the Savior Himself that you are redeemed, and even then there are perils. Each person is responsible for their own souls, and cannot look to any authority to “save” them.
Mod: I think that leads us finally to talk about Denver Snuffer, and other prophets that the Lord might call that are not part of the established church hierarchy. Is his message valid? Should we pay attention?
This post is longer than I thought. I am going to have to break it up and add a third and final blog post. I will release both part 2 and 3 the same day.