Denver Snuffer, Prophet or Scoundrel? Part 3 – Final.

This is the third and final post on prophets and whether the Lord would call someone not part of the LDS hierarchy like Denver Snuffer to speak on His behalf.  (Dr. Nibble and Elder Johnson are not real people, but they represent real opposing ideas)

Mod: I think that leads us finally to talk about Denver Snuffer, and other prophets that the Lord might call that are not part of the established church hierarchy.  Is his message valid? Should we pay attention?

Nibble: If I may, there is a story told by Josephus in Wars of the Jews of a man named Jesus, son of Ananus, who appeared in Jerusalem four years before the war with the Romans which resulted in Jerusalem’s destruction. He appears suddenly in the market place, and actually climbs on to the walls of the city (shades of Samuel the Lamanite?) and declares these words: “A voice from the east, a voice from the west, a voice from the four winds, a voice against Jerusalem and the holy house, a voice against bridegrooms and the brides, and a voice against this whole people.” He repeated this everyday for seven years. He was like a wild man in their midst. He died by a Roman arrow on the wall of the city in the last year of the siege.

I tell that story because it is an example that you have probably not heard of, that the Lord always sends multiple messengers to warn and cajole people into repenting before destruction overtakes a people.  And they are never part of the establishment, for a reason.  We live in a time of great peril, a time that immediately precedes what the Lord says will be terrible.  Even the elect will be deceived.  There will be multiple prophets, many and from various backgrounds and customs. And there will be false prophets- who, according to Isaiah, Ezekiel, Alma and Jacob usually tell the public that all is well.  Are there any prophets recently that have told that all is well?

D&C 46:15-16 talks about the differences of administration and diversities of operations in the way the Holy Spirit is manifested.  The Lord does not communicate exclusively to His people through one voice.  The need for more than one prophet to prophesy also answers to the law of witnesses. And I have to say, the witnesses called by the Lord will always be rejected by established churches because they are not telling a message the leadership agrees with, and the prophet was not sanctioned by them and thereby  are unable to control the message.  When a messenger, a prophet, becomes popular, that is a warning sign.  So a true prophet’s message will never be popular, and will be accepted by very few.

Maybe you don’t think Denver Snuffer is a prophet sent by God, but, based on the way the Lord has always done things, there will always be someone like Denver who will come.  Those prophets will not be favored by church authorities. The idea of a Denver Snuffer is worth investigating.

Mod: It sounds like you are saying that the idea of having only one prophet, who is part of established religion, is not the normal, but actually the exception?

Nibble: I actually can’t think of another time when those conditions existed except when a church was under a Pope, or a very strong controlling central authority.  Even Joseph Smith tried to introduce the idea that the Lord wanted to create a society of priests; prophets able to know Christ and have revelations without having to go to him.  The same with Moses, but the people would have none of it in both generations.

Mod: Elder Johnson, how would you respond to that?

Johnson: I just want to say that you have heard a very convincing argument that the Lord doesn’t work through the channels that he specifically set up through Joseph Smith by revelation. The keys that were given to Joseph to administer the Kingdom of God on earth in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Saints have been preserved and handed down through men that have been prepared to serve as the Lord’s prophets.  It is the Lord’s method by which you can be assured of salvation. He wants you to look to the prophet that he has anointed to lead his church.  Denver Snuffer, and any other man or woman who pretends to speak for the Lord, will, in the end, be revealed to be false.  We have so many false prophets come and go, and they all have proven to be wolves in sheep’s clothing. By always looking to the presidency you can be assured that you will always be able to know what the Lord’s desire is for you. The Lord’s prophet will never lead you astray

Nibble: I think it is important to define the term “prophet”. Joseph Smith said that a prophet is a prophet when he acts like one, i.e., receives revelation from God.  D&C 107:91-92 says, “And again, the duty of the President of the office of the High Priesthood is to preside over the whole church, and to be like unto Moses- Behold, here is wisdom; yea to be a seer, a revelator, a translator, and a prophet.”  When was the last time you heard a prophecy by the president of the church, or when did he last translate or reveal sacred writings? You never have in your lifetime. Here is a statement by Joseph F. Smith, when he was president of the church, that summarizes the current state of leadership in the LDS Church. “I have never pretended, nor do I profess to have received revelations.  I never said I had a revelation except so far as God has shown to me that so called Mormonism is God’s divine truth; that is all.” (Reed Smoot Hearings, 1904).

Johnson: We have the revelation on lifting the priesthood ban in 1978 by Spencer W. Kimball.

Nibble: The truth behind that revelation is that President Kimball did not receive a revelation.  After attempting to get a revelation from God over several years trying, he resorted to asking God to speak to him if that was not His will.

Johnson: I think that qualifies as revelation.  The Lord works by influencing the actions and thoughts of His prophets.

Nibble: That is true, but a prophet should be a little more certain in his communication with God.  Now contrast the experience of the members of the LDS church over the years since Joseph F. Smith with prophecy, and look at the claims that Denver Snuffer has made.  He is saying that he has talked to the Lord. Met him face to face and been given instruction.  He has claimed to have been taught directly by heaven.

Johnson: As have many false prophets.

Nibble: But have you tested his words? Have you gone to the Lord and asked Him if he is a true prophet?

Johnson: I don’t have to.  I know he is a false prophet.  I have not read any of his books or blog posts. The Lord does not operate outside the church authorities that sit in Joseph Smith’s seat. That is the only test that matters.

Nibble: Well, all I can say to that is that the scriptures speak otherwise.  And a truly correct test would be to ask the Lord directly. Elder Johnson, I would like to refer you to John 7:17.

Mod: We have come to the end of our time together.  It has been a wonderful discussion. I would like to give each of you the opportunity to say a last few words.

Johnson: I would like to conclude my remarks by  bearing you my solemn testimony that the Lord directs his church through his prophet, the president of the church. Joseph Smith established the Lord’s church which will not be removed or supplanted until the Lord comes in glory before the Millennium. The government of the kingdom of God that Joseph set up before he was martyred was set up to ensure a continuity of receiving the Lord’s revealed word through the presidency of the church. I cannot stress enough that anyone outside of that established protocol who says that he has the words of Christ, is a false prophet.  And you follow him at your peril. Stay with the church, the authorities have the words of life.

Nibble:   I would like to conclude by offering this bit of advice: “prove all things”. If there is anything of good report seek after it to know if it is true.  The Lord’s pattern in scripture allows His word to be revealed through men and women who probably are not associated or called through existing church hierarchies, especially in times where the Lord is about to pour out judgement upon those people. Yes, there will be false prophets, and yes,  it requires the individual to inquire of the Lord directly to ascertain the truth of their message. The doctrine of infallibility of the president of the church is not scriptural.  He can and will lead you astray.  It has been a requirement of every generation to try the prophets and to determine truth by the Holy Spirit and not trust solely in the arm of flesh. Denver Snuffer fits the profile and role of every true prophet the Lord has sent to warn people in every age.  His role is to warn and advise, but not to rule and coerce people to believe.  If you reject his message out of hand without even a cursory read of his message, then you are not following the Lord’s admonition through Paul to ”prove all things”.

Mod: Thank you Elder Johnson and Dr. Nibble for this engaging discussion.

An interesting discussion, don’t you think? So much confusion and chaos about what to believe and who to believe. Both experts had some good points, but my sympathies lay with Dr. Nibble.  The stance of the LDS church is really untenable when compared with the scriptures and the writings of Joseph Smith.  There has not been a single revelation that stands the test of time from LDS church authorities since Joseph Smith. In stark contrast, you have Denver Snuffer who has made some extraordinary claims.  Claims that are unique, even if you consider all the claims from false prophets in modern times. They are extraordinary enough that they bear looking into.

Denver Snuffer, Prophet or Scoundrel? Part 2

This transcript is Part 2 of a virtual discussion between two eminent scholars: author and professor of history, Dr. Harold Nibble and LDS Historian, Elder Martin K. Johnson. They discuss the precedence of the Lord calling a prophet outside of an established priesthood hierarchy to warn and instruct the people of the LDS church. (Dr. Nibble and Elder Johnson are not real people. They represent two somewhat real opposing points of view)

Mod: What do the scriptures tell us about the Lord calling men to be prophets who are not part of the established “church”?  Or for that matter, do we have examples of times when the Lord called more than one prophet to warn and teach a people at the same time?  Has the Lord made allowances in the past for the calling of multiple prophets to minister to a nation or group of people?

Johnson: I think it is important to point out that the current dispensation, of which Joseph Smith is the founder, has some unique things going for it. There are conditions, qualities, practices, and ordinances that didn’t exist in previous dispensations.  For example, The Old Testament was written under the old Mosaic covenant, which is no longer applicable.  Most of the practices, traditions, requirements of that era are no longer to be observed, or even desired in this last dispensation.  So for us to say there is a precedent in scriptures we also need to acknowledge that we are dealing with new bottles. Things are done differently.  Can the Lord call men to be prophets who are not called and set apart through an established priesthood, through men he has appointed and anointed to administer these things in His name? He certainly has the ability, but He will not act outside what He has established as the method and procedure for such things.  I think it is a moot point to discuss what was done before, and to point at it and say, “See, this is how the Lord has always done it.” D&C 121:26-

Nibble: Not sure how to respond to that other then to say that I suppose it is human nature to assume that one is different from everybody else and therefore “special”.  I don’t know of a single scripture or statement by Joseph Smith that indicates the modern dispensation operates under different rules-other than in some outward ordinances. Joseph constantly taught that all the ordinances and knowledge were known and practiced in previous dispensations. This dispensation is not much different, only in operational principles does it look different.  Several verses come to mind. Primarily there is Moses 5:57-59, which states in verse 59, “And thus all things were confirmed unto Adam, by an holy ordinance, and Gospel preached, and a decree sent forth, that it should be in the world, until the end thereof; and thus it was. Amen”.

Johnson: Nevertheless, D&C 121:26-33 teaches that God meant for this last dispensation to be “special” as you use the term.  It is the dispensation where all things from all dispensations are brought together with new light that will be unique for the last dispensation.  Verse 26 and 27 especially point this out, “God shall give unto you knowledge by his Holy Spirit, yea, by the unspeakable gift of the Holy Ghost, that has not been revealed since the world was until now; Which our forefathers have awaited with anxious expectation to be revealed in the last times, which their minds were pointed to by the angels, as held in reserve for the fulness of their glory.”  This last dispensation is different.

Nibble: That is a wonderful revelation, but, I think, again, you have to look at the context of those verses in the revelation.  You really can’t look at a few verses in isolation without looking at the context.  If you read further into the section you will see that the Lord is talking directly to Joseph Smith and his experiences.  Not only that, but the Lord is referring to a future time.  Verse 28 specifically says, ”A time to come in which nothing shall be withheld.” I think we could discuss this point all day and not be able to establish, one way or another, if the current LDS church holds the only authority to revelation from the Lord.  I would really like to talk about how the Lord, who operates consistently from one generation to another, has always used multiple prophets to get the word out, and not necessarily prophets that are part of the established church.  In fact, it is usually unaffiliated prophets to the existing church.  I think we should consider 1 Nephi 10:19, first.

Mod: I have that right here, “For he that diligently seeketh shall find; and the mysteries of God shall be unfolded unto them by the power of the Holy Ghost, as well in these times as in times of old, and as well in times of old as in times to come; wherefore, the course of the Lord is one eternal round.”  So, Dr. Nibble, you are pointing out by this scripture that the Lord operates the same in every dispensation?

Nibble: Right, “the course of the Lord is one eternal round.”  Sure, the mechanism or organization through which His word is disseminated is a little different; In one dispensation He operates through Patriarchs, in another, judges.  In others it will be apostles, kings, high priests.  But in every case, every single dispensation,  the Lord has called other prophets, outside of the organized and established “church” to deliver messages to His people.  Usually to steer the people back on course, where the established church or religion has started to diverge from the path.

Mod: Give us an example of that taking place, say, during the time of the patriarchs, Abraham or Jacob. It is pretty obvious there were multiple prophets during the time of the Judges and Kings of Israel and Judah, and throughout the Book of Mormon.

Nibble: Sure.  Abraham was the founder of the dispensation.  He was the only one in the entire world willing to obey God.  Or so we are led to believe.  Remember the three messengers sent to Abraham on the way to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah?  The Lord sent those holy men to Abraham.  Turns out he wasn’t the only one who received revelation at that time.  Who was the messenger, or angel that wrestled with Jacob? Hugh Nibley wrote extensively about a couple of prophets mentioned in the Book of Mormon, Zenos and Zenoch, who he demonstrated  prophesied during a period that overlapped with Moses or shortly after.  I find it interesting that the Nephites try to ignore Samuel. Christ had to command the Nephites to include his prophecies in their records.  Were they reticent to include him in their records because he was not part of their church organization?

Johnson: It can be shown that in all of those cases, except perhaps the three messengers Abraham encountered, the existing church organization was in apostacy.

Nibble: Yes.

Johnson: But the present church is not in apostacy. In fact the scriptures indicate that the last dispensation will bring everything together and present this last great work of sealing everything together when the Lord comes.

Nibble: Hmm, well, we could debate that view at another time perhaps. But I can say this, having multiple witnesses of God’s involvement in the affairs of men seems to be the normal state. Having a single monolithic figure head as the sole spokesman for God occurs usually when society or the Lord’s church is in a state of apostacy.  The only exception is perhaps the during founding of a new dispensation, which, by the way, is always founded by a prophet who is not part of the leadership of established religions of the time in every case.

Johnson: In every dispensation but the current one. We have many assurances from the Lord that the last dispensation will never apostatize.  In a letter that Joseph Smith wrote to the saints in Nauvoo in 1842, which later became included in the Doctrine and Covenants as section 128, he speaks a lot about the final dispensation when all things are brought together; all knowledge, all ordinances, the sealing of all families together. He describes the dispensation of the fulness of times when all things will be restored. In verse 19 Joseph declares, “Now, what do we hear in the gospel which we have received? A voice of gladness! A voice of mercy from heaven; and a voice of truth out of the earth;…”  This is the dispensation that all true prophets have looked to for the recovery of all things pertaining to the establishment of the Lord’s gospel on the earth.  Never to be removed until Christ comes.

Nibble: And yet Isaiah, Nephi, Mormon, even Christ Himself at Bountiful speaks about the apostacy of the Gentile church before the second coming (Isaiah 28; 2; Nephi 27:1-2; 28; 3 Nephi 21; Mormon 8) .  There is no other way to read those prophecies than to understand that all generations, all churches, all societies, no matter how well founded, how well led, are in danger of falling away and rejecting truth.  That is a warning that even Joseph Smith uttered on numerous occasions.  There is no guarantee, there is no “safe” zone from being led away from the straight and narrow path. At least not until you are told by the Savior Himself that you are redeemed, and even then there are perils. Each person is responsible for their own souls, and cannot look to any authority to “save” them.

Mod: I think that leads us finally to talk about Denver Snuffer, and other prophets that the Lord might call that are not part of the established church hierarchy.  Is his message valid? Should we pay attention?

This post is longer than I thought.  I am going to have to break it up and add a third and final blog post.  I will release both part 2 and 3 the same day.

Denver Snuffer: Is there room for another prophet?

Denver Snuffer, Prophet or Scoundrel?

 

Is Denver Snuffer a false prophet, or is he genuine?  Most people dismiss him without pause or consideration. A few investigate him using internet resources, and fewer still actually read what he writes, or listen to one of the many talks he makes available on the internet.  Even those most abjectly opposed to the idea of him being a spokesman for God, would have to admit, if they were completely honest, that he is an enigma.

What follows is a transcript of a discussion between two eminent scholars: author and professor of history, Dr. Harold Nibble and LDS Historian, Elder Martin K. Johnson. They discuss the precedence   of the Lord calling a prophet outside of an established priesthood hierarchy.  The moderator was me, no one really to take any notice of.  I was just there to keep things moving and on topic.[i]

Moderator (Mod): Dr. Nibble and Elder Johnson, let me begin first by thanking you for taking the time to come here and discuss the issue of modern prophets and whether we can trust the credentials of men claiming to speak for the Lord.  This is a very important topic that has, I guess you can say, eternal consequences for everyone.  Let me just set the scene and turn it over to the both of you for your insights.

In Mathew 24, the Lord teaches the Apostles that the temple and Jerusalem will be destroyed.  He applies His description of destruction to a distant time just prior to His second coming.  One of the first things he does in this discourse is to warn the apostles, “take heed that no man deceive you.  For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.” And a little later He says again, “And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.” And for a third time states, “Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. For there shall arise false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Behold, I have told you before. Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth:” (Matt 24:4-5,11,23-28)

The Lord warns us three times in fairly quick succession against false prophets.  What does this scripture indicate about how the Lord views prophets in the times to come?  Is he saying beware of all prophets? Or only false prophets? How do you differentiate between true and false ones?

Johnson: One thing to take note of in this discourse of the Savior, He clearly differentiates between prophets and “false prophets”.  He does this by clearly singling out “false prophets”.  It seems to me that if the Savior wanted us to ignore all prophets whatsoever, He would not have singled out false ones.

Nibble: I agree.

Johnson: He left the door open for prophets to appear in the last days.  In fact, there are scriptures in the old testament that identify prophets to come forward in the last days. I am thinking of Isaiah chapter 11 (Isaiah 11:10-11), Isaiah 29 where Isaiah talks about the reprovers that will come in the last days (Is. 29:21), and of course everyone knows Amos 3:7.  There are many other scriptures in the Bible that refer to prophets and the need for prophets in every age. Oh, and I just remembered Isaiah writing, “How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that publish peace” and something about the watchmen lifting their voice.

Nibble: I think that is chapter 52. (Is. 52:7-8) We can add several verses in Ezekiel and Jeremiah referring to watchmen needed in the last days. (Jer. 31:6; Ezekiel 3:17; 33:7).

Mod: So I think we have established that there is accommodation made in the Bible for the appearance of prophets in the last days.  I would like to add that Revelation chapter 11 speaks of two prophets who will be killed in Jerusalem in the days just preceding the coming of Christ.  Is there room for more than one prophet at a time? And can a prophet be called that is not part of the established priesthood hierarchy?  This is, of course, in deference to Denver Snuffer’s, and perhaps other’s, claims that they were called personally by the Savior outside of any recognized church authorities.

Johnson: The Lord established His church in modern times through Joseph Smith and gave him keys to administer the kingdom of God on the earth. Before he was killed, he passed those keys on to the twelve apostles. In the Doctrine and Covenants the Lord established that the quorum of the twelve is equal in authority and power to the first presidency. (D&C 107:24) When Joseph died, the administration of the church passed to the Quorum of Twelve Apostles. This was in keeping with the plan of succession that the Lord set up through Joseph Smith.  As the designated representative of the Lord’s established church and kingdom on the earth, all revelation would come through the Lord’s designated representative.

Nibble: I am not so sure that what you are saying can be verified by the historical record, nor even by the Doctrine and Covenants.

Johnson: Well, it is on record that Joseph was constantly reproving people who took it upon themselves to give revelation to the church, which was usually in the manner of reproof to the church and its leaders. Section 28 establishes that Joseph Smith is the only one to receive revelations for the church. The keys of receiving revelation for the church were passed on to each succeeding president of the church. There is simply no provision by the Lord for prophets to be called who are not ordained through the presiding authorities established by the Lord to administer His church on the earth today.

Nibble: It is true Joseph was appointed as the president of the church, and was called by the Lord to be prophet, seer, and revelator.  In one revelation the Lord declared that only Joseph could receive commandments for the church, but there is no scripture, no record of the keys given him by the Lord being passed on to the Quorum of the Twelve.  And there is no prohibition against other prophets being called by the Lord.  The only prohibition is that Joseph is the only one who can receive “commandments” for the church.  Joseph often chided the people for always coming to him for revelation.  They needed to receive their own revelation from the Lord.

Johnson: We have the testimony of quite a number of men who state that Joseph gave all the keys to the Quorum of Twelve Apostles shortly before he was killed.  And it is true that the Lord wants all of his people to receive revelation from Him directly, but only within the limits of the keys that have been given them.

Nibble: Okay, what you have is only a tradition, and the word of some of the twelve apostles themselves, that Joseph gave them the keys. It is unfortunate that we do not have any contemporary record this took place.  We only have testimony given 30 or 40 years later, and only given in reaction to problems posed by opponents as to the question of the apostles having been given any authority to administer church affairs. In fact, some of the apostles that testified witnessing that Joseph give them the keys were not even present in Nauvoo when this was alleged to have occurred. Also, and most damning, the minutes of the meeting where this investiture took place makes no mention of such a momentous occurrence. (Minutes of the council of 50)

Johnson: The success and growth of the church bear witness to the Lord’s support for his church after Joseph died.  Conferring the keys to the Apostles was in keeping with the plan of succession that the Lord set up through Joseph Smith.  The Lord established the church government this way so that people would know with certainty who spoke for the Lord, and who were false prophets. We avoid confusion and corruption in the church when the Lord makes his will known through one single ordained and anointed prophet.  The Lord gave the keys to Joseph and to the twelve apostles in D&C 112…here it is in verse 15.  The Lord is talking directly to Thomas Marsh, who was the president of the quorum of apostles at the time.  “Exalt not yourselves; rebel not against my servant Joseph; for verily I say unto you, I am with him, and my hand shall be over him; and the keys which I have given unto him, and also to you ward, shall not be taken from him till I come.” The keys remain with the Quorum of the Twelve, which Joseph gave “to you ward”.

Nibble: You should read that verse in context to understand what the Lord is really saying.  In verse 16 the Lord goes on to say: “Verily I say unto you, my servant Thomas, thou art the man whom I have chosen to hold the keys of my kingdom, as pertaining to the Twelve, abroad among all nations—“. The Twelve were never given authority over the stakes during Joseph’s life time.  They only had authority over the missions.  In short, the idea that the presiding president of the Quorum of Twelve holds all keys and has sole authority to act in God’s name on the earth has no scriptural backing.  I think the question as to whether the Lord can and does call other prophets, outside of the LDS General Authorities, to warn and teach is a valid and important question to ponder.

Johnson:  Joseph was told the keys would never be taken from him until the Lord comes.  By extension that means that his successor would hold those exclusive keys.

Nibble: It could also mean exactly what the scripture says; the keys “shall not be taken from him till I come.” Joseph still holds those keys.  He did not pass them on, indeed, he was not given that power to pass them on. He was only given the ability to name his successor,  which he did- Hyrum.

Stay tuned for Part 2.  Things will really get interesting.

 

[i] The names are fictitious, any resemblance to persons living is only a coincidence.  This transcription is of a discussion that in a better world could happen but probably will never take place.